Benefits of Technology to the Church

June 30, 2015
Darrell L. Bock and Gerry Breshears

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Topic Time Codes

00:16
How can the church best use technology for criticism or inquiry?
03:02
How can we more responsibly process online information?
06:58
How can irresponsible sources twist information?
14:31
What are some positive aspects of technology for education?
22:53
The accessibility of educational resources
29:39
The need for increased discernment in processing online sources

Transcript

Dr. Darrell Bock
We're doing a pretty good job of vandalizing the nature of the problem here and taking a look at how it can go awry and how the net is really in some ways perfectly configured for that kind of abuse and dissemination and I think abuse might be actually the right word in some cases for some of what's going on. Let's talk about it from the positive side and think through all right, so how should people, one, engage, one level, and secondly, reflect on what they see on the other. Let's take them one at a time. Let's assume that I have a legitimate concern about something that's going on in the Church and may even want, for good reason, to rally people about the issue or to at least engage. What are some dos and don'ts in thinking through how to go about that?
Dr. Gerry Breshears
One of the things is the basic principles of Matthew 18. Go to the person involved first, take two or three wise, spirit-led people with you, then it says go to the whole church and that kind of a process I think is a good way to do that. I just was this morning consulted by the friend who's in a church where it turned out the pastor is doing a couple of things, like he's engaging prostitutes and misusing funds, got a slush fund to pay for his trips to the local parlors and such. They just discovered this about a week ago. What they did first was they tried to go to the pastor; he wouldn't talk to them. No surprise. They took a couple of key leaders from the Church and then from the Church planning organization, nothing came there.

They sent a note out via Facebook, ironically, to the people of the Church and called them to a public meeting, invited the pastor to be there. He didn't show up. They will end up dissolving the Church and starting a new church, a replant, but I think the way they went about this was a good way to do it. They tried to follow those patterns. The 1 Timothy 5 pattern, "Don't entertain an accusation against an elder except on occasion of two or three witnesses." They followed that. There's absolutely a place to confront evil in the Church. The Church does not get a pass to say, "Well, let's pray and just do nothing." That is not Biblical either.
Dr. Darrell Bock
One the one hand, there's an appropriate way to do criticism and then there's a way that represents an abuse. Okay, you're on the other end of this now. You're not generating the response, but you're seeing things and dealing with that, maybe the above, I suspect is a little easier, but how do you deal with what you're picking up across the net and what should you remember about the net as you interact with this kind of stuff?
Dr. Gerry Breshears
The internet has some very responsible sources in it and what I wanna do is go to responsible sources. In the Mars Hill thing, for example, I absolutely refused to go to the blog sites, the sensationalistic blog sites, because the more I go to them, the more I increase their traffic and I end up actually making them money by going there. Instead, I went to responsible sources, whether just news service, Christianity Today, groups like that, who were covering the story, yes, but were doing with a charitable and trying to get both sides or all sides, as the case may be. I think that's a key thing, is go to responsible sources. Don't increase the web traffic for the most sensationalistic places.
Dr. Darrell Bock
Those sites, and I think you've mentioned Christianity Today, Religious News Service, and Christian Post, these sites are driven by people who are professional journalists, who generally speaking are trying to do their job very, very responsibly and you can see that even within the context of the stories, because what the stories will inevitably do, if they're journalistically well done, is they will give you both sides. They will give you the conversation that's actually taking place as opposed to only one side of the story.
Dr. Gerry Breshears
Yep. Like Christianity Today, which I really enjoy what they're doing there, they were trying every possible way, as responsible journalists, to talk to key people first hand with attribution as the story developed. I think that's the way it should be. Ironically, I knew we were gonna have this story, I saw a story in The New York Times on Sunday, November 9, that was characterizing WORLD Magazine as a muckraking Christian mag –
Dr. Darrell Bock
Yes, I saw the same piece this weekend.
Dr. Gerry Breshears
I thought, "My gosh". I know Marv Olansky. I know some other people that work with WORLD and there is a piece where they're trying to be the investigating journalist. Now they are not muckraking, but it's interesting that The New York Times would characterize them as a muckraking organization. That says something about the danger of being involved in this sort of thing and how important it is to do it well.
Dr. Darrell Bock
Yes, and it's another indication of the way our culture is working with this. It's hard for me to talk about this topic and not take a real step back, kind of get a bird's eye view, on the cultural influence of what's going on and the cultural influence of what's going on, it seems to me is is that we have developed a culture of – it's kind of a combination between the gotcha journalism that you sometimes see and the idealogical divides that tend to fuel our conversations where our goal is to defend a particular ideology or approach as opposed to working, if I could say this way more positively, towards some type of solutions or resolution of the tensions that we find. A person takes sides. They cherry pick evidence and in the process, they only hear one side. We have a joke in our office, there are the people who watch Fox News and there are the people who watch CSNBC and we're not sure they're living on the same planet.
Dr. Gerry Breshears
True.
Dr. Darrell Bock
If you look at the world through those lenses, you're looking at two very different sets of lenses and two very different ways of seeing things, but when does the actual legitimate conversation, without polemics, take place between those kinds of points of view? I think that cultural, almost world wide federation of wrestling feel to the way we grapple with ideas today, doesn't lead to healthy public discourse, nor does it lead to positive challenges when very legitimate issues are put out on the table.
Dr. Gerry Breshears
That's correct. I got accused in the public arena a while back of being a polytheist, which nobody who knows me would ever make that charge stick, but the irony was this discernment TV thing, put out the charge and if you go Google Gerry Breshears, it still appears on the front page and that was some time back. One of the things I would encourage people, as you're looking at various internet sites, look and see is there something there where they have contacted the person that they're charging stuff with, because, of course, that's Matthew 18, is go to the person privately. One of the things that struck me with Mark Driscoll is when all the stuff was going around and he was being blasted in all the criticism on the net, he did not do the same thing back. He didn't blog about the people.

When you have issues with people, you pick up the phone and call them and talk to them. I think that's a much better way to do things.
Dr. Darrell Bock
Yes. I agree with you and I think to me it's a disturbing way to interact, to just simply pump out the negative stuff and not talk directly to the people. Gerry, you'll identify with this, this goes way back, but when we were going through all the conversations that were happening on dispensationalism on our campus and some of that has gone through the web, so I've been like you the target, if I can say it that way.
Dr. Gerry Breshears
I did good, Darrell.
Dr. Darrell Bock
I know, but the interesting thing is how people would inevitably comment on motive. Why you did what you did. What the circumstances were. They didn't know. They didn't have a clue and low and behold, the speculation was miles off in terms of what the actual dynamics were. In fact, in this last week, on Facebook, I actually had to respond to someone who issued a challenge, but they tried to protect themselves. They basically said on this very point, they said, if this doctoral statement was signed disingenuously, basically was the deal, and if the leadership knew about it, that says something about the way these things happen and the way in which the slippery slope happens. That was the gist of what was said. That isn't quoting it, 'cause I'm trying to not make obvious where this was.

I'm a part of this exchange in this Facebook group and I wrote back and I said, I cannot let this one go. I have to respond and I said, you realize that when you say this, you not only are questioning the judgment of the person who you think has signed a doctoral statement without integrity, but you're also questioning the integrity of the people who have oversight over that process and I came back and I said, this was part of a long series of conversations. Everyone was very aware of what was going on. There was a reflective process that was engaged in, et cetera. The person wrote me back and said, why did you let this get under your skin? I did say if. I didn't say this was the case and I said, yeah, but your ifs leave an impression and the impression is left there and I said, if you take the ifs away, then the whole thing shouldn't even have been mentioned.

That's the kind of situation that you deal with, so I think that's kind of a good specific example, if I can say it that way, of the way in which people manipulate the thought space, if I can describe it that way.
Dr. Gerry Breshears
It really is and to make that kind of suggestion is to come to the conclusion that there's factual reason behind it and that just leaves the question and the Biblical word for that is slander. Such things should not happen.
Dr. Darrell Bock
I actually in my response said that basically that was what was being done. That's why I felt like I had to respond and the thing is this person in the response admitted, I don't know any of the details. I did say if. I wasn't sure this was, but see that's the impression. That's the, if I can say it, that's the aroma or maybe the stench that was left in the air, which then the person picked up upon and it's allowed to pass on from place to place to place. This reminds me of a joke that I often say to students when I deal with this, when I talk about the rumor mill related to the seminary and the joke goes, the rumor mill at Dallas Seminary is as fast as the omniscience of God, it's just not as accurate.

The point that I'm very much trying to make is that you hear a lot, it's omnipresent, it's all around you, but you need to filter out that a lot of what you're hearing may not actually be true.
Dr. Gerry Breshears
Yeah, and that's hard to do from somebody's who's watching from a distance, because they have even less context than the person who's making the charges.
Dr. Darrell Bock
Exactly correct.
Dr. Gerry Breshears
That's why I think we should avoid that sort of stuff, because when we go and read that, we're filling our minds with trash and I just don't think that's a good and Godly thing to do.
Dr. Darrell Bock
Yeah, and of course, we haven't even raised the larger theological question here of granted a person may think they're well motivated, granted they may think they're protecting the Church, granted they may think they're doing something positive, but the problem is that actually they are undercutting the integrity and unity of the Church by the way they're going about it. Not that they're raising questions, again I wanna make that distinction, but the way they're going about it undercuts the unity of the Church and that's one of the things Ephesians 4 tells us we're supposed to work hard to protect.
Dr. Gerry Breshears
That's correct and the thing that I've used as a guide in my own life, is I try not to invest energy in anything that I can't make a difference in. I don't need to know all the details that's happening in such and such a church or such and such an organization, if I don't have any connection with that organization. The need to follow that is just to indulge in gossip on the recipient side if not on the giver's side and again, scripture tells us not to do that. I need to use my energy well to do good and Godly things, which does include criticizing sin. I'm absolutely called to do that, but how we do it is critically important.
Dr. Darrell Bock
I think we've walked our way through this in a significant kind of way. Let's kinda turn the discussion a little bit and let's talk positively about what technology is able to do for us and let me start by tackling what I know that you work with a lot of online stuff, so do I and I wanna talk about an online experience that really changed the way I viewed online education. I was asked to teach a class in Perth, Australia. Now granted if you know your geography, Dallas, Texas, is some distance from Perth, Australia. They're not exactly in the same neighborhood. Anyone who's taken that Qantas flight knows what I'm talking about.

I was asked to teach this class for Perth, Australia, this was about three summers ago and the way they did it, it was a hybrid. It was designed to be a hybrid class, which is that you interact over the net with your students first and then you go for a week intensive class where you're meeting with them face to face, 'cause of course, the criticism of online is is that you don't get to interact with the students at a personal level because you're not with them there physically. This is where I learned it's more complicated than that. I'm interacting for six weeks before I show up. I'm asking a question a week to the students and I'm asking them to interact with them and I'm interacting with them individually. Fortunately the class was of the size that you can do this, it was 12 students, and there's nothing Biblical in that number, by the way.

I'm interacting with 12 students, we're in effect in a chat room in which they are both interacting with each other and they're interacting with me. The thing that I tell people is, is that when I actually went to do that class, when I flew to Perth and walked into the room, I actually knew more about each student that I was interacting with, where they were coming from, what their strengths and skills and weaknesses were in dealing with the areas and what I needed to do as a teacher interacting with them in class, than I had ever had in any face-to-face class experience where the first day I walk in, I've got a new roll and I'm calling roll and I'm getting to know the students. It completely changed the way I thought about online and what technology's able to do.
Dr. Gerry Breshears
Yeah, the technology adds a different dimension of interaction and I don't think there's anything that's gonna replace what happens in a classroom when you get a spontaneous immediate discussion going on with full person presence, I don't think we're gnostic. I don't think we're just minds and –
Dr. Darrell Bock
Absolutely agreed.
Dr. Gerry Breshears
But still, the sort of thing you're talking about, there is a chance for reflection and an engagement that happens via the chat room or by video thread. Things happen there that will never happen in the classroom, even in an active classroom like yours or mine, half the students never engage unless we call them out and I do.
Dr. Darrell Bock
That's right and you've made a great point that sometimes the student who doesn't say a word in class, because of the way the net is set up, they have to engage and step in. You do get to see them. Another thing that I sense you sometimes get in the net that you wouldn't get in a classroom is because the net seems to be so personal, one to one, even though I'm in a chat room, it's still one to one, I don't feel the presence of the class around me as I'm typing at my keyboard. You actually get the person probably coming out and revealing more about where they are, than they would if they were in a classroom of 30 people and they're wondering what are all my peers gonna think about. Even though the irony is, as soon as they type it and put it up on the net, everyone's seeing what they're saying, but they don't think about it that way when they interact on the net it seems like.

They just say what they're thinking and so you actually get, I would say, often times a more direct glimpse of the person than you tend to get in a classroom setting.
Dr. Gerry Breshears
The piece that happens in my classrooms is I get involved very personally with students and many of them end up showing up in my office later on for a discussion. They've become extremely personal, but that same thing happened online where there's the chat room kind of thing, the discussion threads or the video threads, but then they'll go offline and they'll send me an e-mail or Facebook message, private message, where they can be very personal and very private. There a lot of dimension that can happen there with online kind of thing. The other thing that happens online to education that's very helpful, is the student can go back and replay what I just said. When I say something that's incredibly profound, which happens about every ten years –
Dr. Gerry Breshears
Yeah, they say could you say that again in their classroom. I say, I really couldn't, but online, they can push replay and especially students who are slow processors or for whom English is not a first language, that can be extremely helpful for them.
Dr. Darrell Bock
Yeah and you make the point that one of the things that online processes allow for is the student to kinda progress at their own pace as opposed to being locked into whatever the progress is on the syllabus, even in areas like language, that's very, very important, because when you teach languages, you're compressing a year's worth of instruction sometimes in a semester. You're moving pretty fast and if a student gets behind, the further you get, the behinder they get and the worse it gets and so it can become a problem in that regard. What I like to say is is that you've got to appreciate the nature of the medium that you're in. That each medium has certain strengths and weaknesses and you need to be aware of what they are. Certain ways of doing things are going to deliver certain things well and others things poorly.

That's why I've always been a fan of the hybrid class, because I think a hybrid gives you a little bit of the best of both worlds. It allows the internet to do what it's able to do somewhat uniquely, but they also get at least a dimension of personal interaction that allows you to recover what otherwise you wouldn't get just being there and the distance and having an affective virtual class.
Dr. Gerry Breshears
Another thing that happens through the internet, I know several people who are refugees from countries where they cannot go back because of political oppression and that sort of a thing, with today's technology, I know some people who are having extremely affective ministry in closed countries via some creative technology involvement that could never happen otherwise and I am just so impressed with what technology's allowing to happen in closed countries. That something like YouVersion, for example, which has who knows how many translations on it these days, people on cellphones in countries where there's absolutely no other gospel witness, can open up their Bibles and read it and people tell me, they're doing it in large numbers. Amazing results with technology.
Dr. Darrell Bock
Yeah, I think this is one of the great benefits of what technology gives to us, because you can minister to people from a long way away who would never be able to actually darken the door of your own school. They never would have a change to come to Portland. They never have a chance to come to Dallas and yet they can get at least snippets of feedback and input that are made available to them and then the irony is is the person ends up getting arrested in North Korea for leaving a Bible behind, doesn't need to do it, because the other amazing thing is that in most of these countries most people do have cellphones and do know how to access these kinds of sites if they're interested in doing so and are able to do so and are even able to do so with some awareness about how to protect themselves as they do it in case the government is nervous about that access.
Dr. Gerry Breshears
Yeah, and it can be done through chips that can be put in cellphone. There's so many creative ways to deliver sermons or instruction. It's just amazing. But the hybrid still, I think is the best way to do things, where there's the online connection, but then a living presence as well. That gives kind of the best of all the worlds.
Dr. Darrell Bock
Yeah, I think so, too. I think what all this, of course, means is that the value of the specific local campus, we already alluded to this in talking about the way in which libraries function today. The idea of physical – a confined physical space being the place where this kind of thing happens, is becoming less important as we think about the dissemination of education and information.
Dr. Gerry Breshears
I look at the algorithms that are involved in say a Google search or something like that, I can get some really good information on most any topic simply by Google search and we used to laugh at Wikipedia, but it's become a very good resource. I think it's as good quality as Encyclopedia Britannica in many cases, because of public accountability for what's put on there.
Dr. Darrell Bock
Yeah, I think that's basically correct and the amazing thing to me now is the amount of resources that you get access to. I used to do a class, or I still do the class, but I used to do a class on Second Temple Jewish Backgrounds. That means I was taking students through Apocrypha, pseudepigrapha, Mishnah, Talmud, all the first century, before and after resources that inform the way we think about Judaism so we understand the context of the New Testament. I used to have to walk into class with this huge stack of books that I would pass around to students when I – here's the Apocrypha, here's the pseudepigraphal, two volumes of pseudepigrapha, here's the one volume of the Mishnah.

Couldn't bring the Talmud in, that would have had to have brought the cart to bring in all the volumes of that, but the point is is that – and the goal of the exercise was to have the student handle the book, see what it looked like, look inside, see what the structure of these books were, and give them some familiarity because I figured familiarity would breed usage, that if it wasn't a foreign object to them, then they might actually go and pull it off the shelf. This last year that I taught was the first year I had taught the course in which I didn't have to bring in a single volume. Everything was available on the computer. I could post it up on the screen. They could see it electronically. The beauty of it is, we could all access the same text at the same time, read it, and process it together. The advantage of that from a teaching standpoint is immense and it shows the way things have very much changed.
Dr. Gerry Breshears
Something as obscure as the Dead Sea Scrolls just went on the internet just recently and anybody can go back and look at pictures of the original Dead Sea Scrolls. Of course, that means you have to have the scholarly skills to read and then to analyze what's going on, but the original sources are available and it's just great. Now we just got to do the work in educating so we can use them.
Dr. Darrell Bock
That's exactly right and it does change very much the dynamics of the way things work and the possibilities that exist and you can kind of read this in the way we're interacting with each other. To the naysayers who sometimes say that the introduction of technology takes us out of the classroom, removes the personal dimension, that kind of thing, that I think is an oversimplified, negative analysis of what actually is going on.
Dr. Gerry Breshears
Yeah, we have a Portland mythology of a guy sitting in the basement of his mother's house, blogging around, and those people exist for sure, but the other reality is the competent church leader who now have access to incredible resources to take up the work of the Church to a whole different level, if they have the education and ability to use that material wisely and well.
Dr. Darrell Bock
It's funny how this works, I was doing an Historical Jesus class this weekend that meets at my house on Friday evenings from 7:00 to 10:00 and we're all gathered around the table, it's 18 students in the class, and I had a Latin-American student who is obviously here working in a second language, has made the effort to come, and he was sharing with the class his fear of having come here, having learned what he's learned, having had the access to the resources that he has, et cetera, and going back and plunging into ministry and being separated from the library, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and he says, and I feel this responsibility now of what I know I need to do in order to study a passage and I'm not confident I'm gonna be able to do it. I looked at him and I said, if you think about this in terms of what you have access to technologically, because our students get the Logos package as part of their coming here, what you're able to do technologically, what you have access to, you don't have to be next to the library any more.
I said, the way things have changed is, what used to take me two or three days to do in terms of research, because I had to go to the library, pulls books down the shelf, actually access it by hand, read my way through it, et cetera. I said, what used to take me two or three days to do, and in some cases, took me hours to just get organized to do, figuring out what it is I had to look up and where it was in the library and where it was on the shelf, et cetera. I said, now can take me only two or three hours and so you have access to all this material because of what technology is able to do for us. I said, don't despair. You're really in a much better place than the person – the person who graduated two or three generations ago, should have had your fear, but you don't need to have it.
Dr. Gerry Breshears
Yeah, the technological stuff, when I travel internationally to teach, even to fairly remote occasions, I got my little laptop computer here and with Logos and other things I have available on it and Bible Works, I've just got amazing resources –
Dr. Darrell Bock
Should mention Accordance as well. Okay, everybody got equal time. Go ahead.
Dr. Gerry Breshears
Absolutely.
Dr. Gerry Breshears
There's a lot of these things that are just phenomenal packages, each with their strengths, and many of us are multilingual in that sense, too. They're affordable for many people, not all, and just the resources that are available, but again, the responsibility to not just cite information, but to process and integrate it for wisdom. The temptation of people just to dispense information they get off of their computer, is still a big temptation that has to be overcome.
Dr. Darrell Bock
Yeah, that's a great observation. Just because you have access to the information, doesn't necessarily mean that the information that you have is good information. You still have to process what's going on. I love to use the example of Jesus' remark about being able to pass through the eye of a needle and the very well circulated tradition that this is some type of an illusion to a city gate that a camel actually can get through if the circumstances are right, to which I go, if you'll just read the context in which the response of the disciples is, what you have just said is impossible. Then you will get the sense that a city gate can't be in the background here and despite how well circulated that idea is, the idea probably comes from a medieval description of Jerusalem as opposed to a first century description of Jerusalem, that's where probably arose.
Dr. Darrell Bock
You still have to process the background information that you get access to. Do these sources come from the time period involved or do they represent views that go back that far or are you citing a source that's much, much later in time and does it – all those kinds of things still have to be done.
Dr. Gerry Breshears
The responsibility again to preach and not just dispense information so that you're working for transformation in your local community, that's still there, and it's still – in the date of downloading all kinds of sermons, the temptation is to use the intellectual resources of the web, and they're there, but we still have to take it, not just abstract teaching, but we have to preach for life transformation and community enhancement.
Dr. Darrell Bock
Yeah, and that's, of course, one of the values of why a seminary exists is the seminary helps you to actually put those skills together. I sometimes get the question, and not that this is supposed to be an ad for seminaries, but why come to seminary? Why not let the Church train the people for ministry in their own locations? There is some contextualized training that is definitely beneficial from being able to work in your own environment and your own context. No one can challenge that idea, but the flip side of it is when you go to a seminary, when you pool the resources and the expertise that's involved in the assembling of a faculty, some of whom have given their life to Old Testament, some of whom have given their life to New Testament, some have given their life to systematic, some have given their life to historical theology, some have given their life to talk about how preaching actually works, others to Christian ed, and you put that assemblage of faculty together, there is no church in the world, I don't care how mega they are, that is able to put that kind of a combination of resources available to the student as they're going through their education and reflection, helping them develop expertise in each one of those areas.
Dr. Gerry Breshears
Yep. Another resource for students, for seminaries, is where good schools, like Dallas and Western, are amazing resources for current pastors to come back to and get help as well. It's not just students who get resource help.
Dr. Darrell Bock
That's right and of course, the whole point of doing podcasts like this is to actually provide those kinds of resources for people, again, over the net, so that people can get updated. Part of what our philosophy in doing these is to actually help a local pastor who's out of school and away from the resource center, if you will, keep up to date with what's going on by getting access to conversations about books and resources and topics and that kind of thing, that are up to date that lets them know what's happening at the thought levels in various areas.
Dr. Gerry Breshears
One of the things that I keep watch on for myself, is how much I'm getting caught up in the latest fad, because it's instantaneous, 24 hour news cycle with the web, it's the temptation of the sensational or the new thing is even more involved and I can get a lot of energy wasted on the greatest new thing or the greatest new book that comes out, and again, that's where our wisdom to see, is this really gonna make a change or is this just the cool thing that's coming down the pipe this week?
Dr. Darrell Bock
Yeah, I've got a whole category in my browser toolbar that's called emergent. It's all the emergent websites. I don't know the last time I actually went to look at some of those for that very kind of reason and, again, it isn't because that movement didn't have something to say or something to contribute, but it wasn't the be all and end all that you sometimes had the impression it was going to supply for us at the time when it emerged.
Dr. Gerry Breshears
One of the things that has come out of the whole Mars Hill brouhaha that we were talking about earlier, I've heard some pretty responsible people say the day of the mega church is done and I think, what a stupid statement. God has always worked in different kinds of churches. There are ups and down sides to any kind of church and, again, that's where the requirement that we have an educated discernment to assess what's going on and not just caught up in the latest news cycle is so very important.
Dr. Darrell Bock
Yeah, and this is a whole 'nother podcast we'll probably have to come back to, 'cause I know you do a lot of work in ecclesiology, but I get very disturbed at the sniping that takes place. This is actually very similar to the topic we were in in the middle of this podcast, takes place between the person who's in the small church and the mega church pastor and the way they shoot at one another sometimes. That's a very, very bad place to be. I do have a pastor friend who sends anything negative that comes across the net about a mega church, he sends my way to keep me up to date on what the latest complaints are about the mega church and my response often to him is to say, but how often are these mega churches reaching people and touching people and getting them to think about the gospel that your church is not touching and reaching? Don't forget that.
Dr. Gerry Breshears
The internet can be a temptation to get involved in this kind of criticism, because you can always find some friends who are actually just interested in muckraking kind of things, but they're on the internet and you can certainly gather them around. You can form a Facebook group of mockers and, boy I don't want to be involved with mockers. I want to be involved with builders. You can find those on the internet, as well, but choose who you search with and who you associate with on the internet just as much as you do in your local environment.
Dr. Darrell Bock
That's right and keep in mind that God works through different structures in different ways. They have different strengths. I'm reminded of an old story I like to tell of Campus Crusade doesn't do what InterVarsity does, doesn't do what Young Life does, but I'm sure glad they're all there, 'cause they're each reaching different groups of people, each of whom needs to hear what they're about. Gerry, our time has disappeared and I appreciate you taking the time to talk with us about technology. I probably will have you back one day to talk about mega church versus small church and I do another one of these that relates to that, because I do know that ecclesiology is a love of yours and you've given a lot of thought to these kinds of questions and issues, but we appreciate you being a part of The Table and helping us sort our way through the technological web that now surrounds us in our lives and I'm so glad you could be a part of our time today.
Dr. Gerry Breshears
Appreciate it, Darrell, a lot.
Dr. Darrell Bock
Yep, and we thank you for being a part of The Table and look forward to having you back with us soon.

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